The Opportunity for NSW: Harnessing the Power of the Grid

Hello, I'm Sarah Aubrey and welcome to another episode of Wired For Good, Conversations for a Better Energy Future. Today we're exploring an essential piece of Australia's energy transition, distribution networks. To help us unpack their critical role and potential, I'm joined by two fantastic guests, Dom van den Berg, CEO of Energy Networks Australia, welcome.

[Dom] (0:59 - 1:00)

Thank you. Nice to be here.

[Sarah] (1:01 - 1:07)

Lovely to have you.

And Tim Jarrett, Group Executive, Market Development and Strategy at Ausgrid. Welcome, Tim.

[Tim] (1:08 - 1:09)

Thank you. Great to be here.

[Sarah] (1:09 - 1:48)

So today we're looking at how distribution networks can play a pivotal role in Australia's energy transition, especially here in New South Wales. We'll explore their importance in making the transition more accessible, cost effective and reliable, and how they could help accelerate this massive shift. We'll also dive into big questions like what's driving the pace of change in the industry?How can networks work together for a more integrated approach? And what steps can we take at a regional level to unlock the full potential of these networks? So before we begin, Tim, I just have a question for you, for someone like me, what is a distribution network?

[Tim] (1:49 - 2:24)

Now, it's a great question because actually it's something that people don't often have to think about. The analogy I always use for the distribution network, it's the roads that go all the way through to your house and bring the power to your home. So, if you think about the transmission network, that's like your motorways or freeways moving large quantities of power around.

The distribution network is like the smaller roads which go from the motorway all the way down, kind of dual carriageways down to single roads and tracks that get to every single individual home, business and the like. So, it allows the power to be spread all the way around the network and neighbourhood.

[Sarah] (2:24 - 2:34)

Excellent. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know the difference between a transmission line and the poles and wires and they were called different things. So, I learned that the other day and now I know.

[Dom] (2:34 - 2:48)

Yeah, but I think that's what a lot of Australians would say the same. We think, oh, well, of course you'd know this difference, but you wouldn't. And that's part of our job now is to actually make sure that people do understand the difference as much as you need to.

[Tim] (2:48 - 3:05)

And people walk past, you know, we've got these green kiosks in the streets. If you go around Sydney, you see them, but people just walk past and just don't know what it's there for. Some people think it's NBN.

Some people, if you stop them in the street, wouldn't have a clue. But actually, that's where you've got a transformer in there, which then steps it down the voltage and allows it to go into individual people's homes.

[Sarah] (3:06 - 3:11)

See, I didn't know that either. Oh, no. Love it.

Excellent.

[Dom] (3:11 - 3:11)

All right.

[Sarah] (3:11 - 3:32)

OK, so let's start with a big picture question for both of you.

When we think about the energy transition, people often focus on renewable generation or large transmission projects, but distribution networks are just as important. So, what do you think is their most significant role in enabling Australia's energy transition? Dom, I'm going to start with you.

[Dom] (3:32 - 4:41)

Thank you. And I think you said it in your opening, the need for large scale generation and transmission is absolutely critical. But alongside that, and if I can crudely use your example, those roads leading into the homes, the poles and wires, there's much more we can do with those poles and wires. And so, you know, we established, well, we kicked off a report called The Time Is Now a few months ago that really looked at what role can the distribution networks play alongside transmission and what role it could play not in 10, 15 years if we all get our ducks in a row. What role can it play kind of here and now with not that much regulatory change, not that much change to what we do, but genuine practical actions. And what we found through this report is by putting these five things in place, and I can go through them later, customers are better off in 2030 than what they would have been had we not taken those actions, all customers, whether you own those assets or not, because the local grid is doing more for them and it brings down emissions at the same time.

So I think what we're seeing is that the distribution network is actually a fairly uncontentious space where the opportunities are there to lean on.

[Sarah] (4:42 - 4:43)

Yeah, great. What about you, Tim?

[Tim] (4:43 - 5:57)

So, I think the one area where Australia is absolutely world leading is the rollout of rooftop solar. It is absolutely number one in the planet in terms of how far rooftop solar has penetrated. We're looking at about a third of households in the national electricity market have some solar on the roof, which is just far, far ahead of places like Europe and other jurisdictions.

I think that is great for those who can have the solar because rooftop solar is the lowest cost form of energy you can get these days. But two thirds of people don't have rooftop solar and we need to be a lot more equitable and make sure the benefits are shared more widely. And I think that's something that Dom started to touch on earlier.

And I think one of the key aspects that will enable this is the use of batteries to absorb the excess power that comes from people's rooftop solar rays, soaks that up and then can redistribute it back out to the network in the evening when prices start to go up. And so that you can actually share the benefits and share the ability of local generation of power to be experienced by all people, not just those who own their own home, who are in the kind of nice, detached house with a big roof. Actually, if you're in an apartment or you're renting, you don't get that opportunity.

[Sarah] (5:57 - 6:08)

It's such a big issue. Renters all the time, it's just like they don't have access to solar. It's they can't do energy efficiencies to their homes, all those things.

Yeah, that's good. Fairness. It's all about fairness, the transition.

[Tim] (6:09 - 6:26)

And I think that's the and battery, I think, are the key to unlock this because at the moment, very, very few solar customers have batteries. So therefore, the community batteries become a really important way of a kind of a sponge in the community that can soak up all that excess power and then redistribute it in the evening.

[Sarah] (6:26 - 6:28)

Yeah. Will that bring down people's bills?

[Tim] (6:30 - 6:50)

Yes. So, we've launched a product called Energy Storage as a Service, which we are starting to test at the moment with a couple of the big retailers. And certainly, our early modelling shows that customers who sign up to this should get savings in the order of a couple of hundred dollars a year.

Obviously, you've got to do all the math and work through it. But that's the sort of size we're seeing.

[Sarah] (6:50 - 7:02)

OK, so, Tim, actually, I have a question for you. Australia's energy transition is moving fast. What are the biggest changes you're seeing right now and how are distribution networks adapting to those challenges?

[Tim] (7:03 - 8:04)

I think the biggest change you're seeing across all Australian networks, in particular Ausgrid, is just this take up of rooftop solar. So, it's fascinating, having moved to Australia relatively recently from the UK, just seeing how much rooftop solar there is, how far it's penetrated into all different areas of society in Australia, certainly when you compare it to other parts of the world. Australia is really leading on this.

Overall, about a third of households have solar. In the Ausgrid territory, we're actually quite a bit farther behind with only about 20 per cent penetration. But the solar opportunity is huge and it's going to get even bigger.

That potential is massive because solar on the rooftop is probably the lowest cost power that Australian households can access. So, it's the real question is how do we make the most of that and how can we take that solar forward and make sure that everyone can benefit from that low-cost power source?

[Sarah] (8:05 - 8:17)

So, Dom, we often talk about the grid as one system, but it's actually made up of many separate networks. How can these networks collaborate more effectively to create a more unified and integrated approach?

[Dom] (8:19 - 9:39)

I joined Energy Networks Australia maybe 18 months ago, and I genuinely say that what was quite a surprise is how much the networks do collaborate. It's jurisdictional based. To Tim's point, there are innovation that's been happening in these different networks that's actually world leading.

And so, the opportunity to share and collaborate across the networks is alive and well, and it is actually happening. And it's surprising. It's surprising to see.

And I think it's probably not as well-known and I guess nor would it be to the average person out there. But because of that collaboration, that innovation, we managed to put out that report The Time is Now, which does show certain strands that or certain elements that we could get after that is consistent across the piece. But it will be ramped up and ramped down in different places depending on where you need it.

So somewhere like South Australia has got a very high penetration of rooftop solar. They might be looking at different aspects of what you might get after. So, I think the collaboration is there.

It's good saying that you can still do much better in terms of planning, integrating, using the latest technology, the stuff's moving at real speed. And so, we're going to constantly need to make sure that that collaboration actually hits the ground and you're starting to see the benefits of that in the same way that we've seen to date.

[Sarah] (9:40 - 9:57)

Do you think the role distribution networks play in delivering affordable, reliable energy is well understood? You were just saying it's not necessarily understood. How can we improve that awareness and engagement?

I'd actually love to hear some of those world leading things. It's like, why don't consumers know about that stuff?

[Dom] (9:57 - 12:10)

Yeah, and I think consumers maybe do, but they might, well, maybe we're using different language. You know, what we've done is some research out there. We did it with 89 Degrees East and tested what do Australians understand by the word like transmission, transition, these kinds of languages which we just band around and we use even worse acronyms in the energy space.

[Sarah]

Oh, you're a shocker for the acronyms.

[Dom]

We really are. Your average Australian doesn't necessarily understand, but they do understand different aspects of, you know, they understand solar, they increasingly understand batteries coming through.

But we've got a job to do, without a doubt, to make this far more simpler. And this, what I'm going to say, I think is maybe a little bit more controversial because I think there are many people that would say, actually, customers don't want to understand a thing. They just want to turn their light switch on.

They want it all to be done for them. They don't want to have to think about it. And yes, you're going to have that cohort of customers, without a doubt.

And it's probably, we can argue whether it's bigger or larger, but I think there's an increasing group of customers coming through that are engaged because the size of the wallet now between EV charging, you know, between running your load, size of energy wallet, not just electricity, is quite significant. And so, and alongside that, you're getting these apps that are starting to, you know, really showcase it. So, people are like, OK, I can see that there's some innovative things happening.

But in terms of specific areas, right. We called out five things in this report. One was creating more local energy hubs.

So that's connecting renewables and storage straight into the distribution network. So not necessarily just at the transmission level, straight into the distribution network and creating these hubs across the country. The second thing we said is amplify more solar.

And that is about, especially in commercial buildings. I mean, you know, Ausgrid, 20 percent, that can increase. But when you're flying into Sydney and we're flying into Melbourne, it's a whole lot of commercial space out there that could do with more solar.

But the third, and this is definitely true for South Australia, you don't want more solar without there being more storage. Right. And the ability to soak up that solar and really make sure that you're getting the best benefit from that solar and not spilling that solar is absolutely crucial.

[Sarah] (12:10 - 12:21)

So that's like the duck curve, right? So, we get a lot of solar in the middle of the day and then it dips and then everyone turns everything on and the solar is gone. So, we need to be able to store that solar, is that it?

[Dom] (12:21 - 12:47)

That's right. And you think, well, Australia, it's actually tall and skinny, the national electricity network, right? So, it's not like it stretches from Perth to Brisbane.

If that were the case, that duck curve of the different hours, you would have an overlap of daylight hours that actually made the duck curve less of an issue. But actually, our network is spread from Port Lincoln all the way through to the north. Right.

And because it's so skinny, everyone's on the same daylight hours.

[Sarah] (12:48 - 12:48)

Oh no.

[Dom] (12:48 - 14:14)

Yeah. So, it's a little bit unfortunate that we stretch that way instead of stretch this way. But that duck curve is made that much worse in a place like Australia because of that system.

Right. And then we're getting high levels of solar coming through. And so no longer is it just a little bit, it's a lot and it's enough to make it really tough for the coal plants to actually run, turn up and turn down.

They're just not designed for that. But if I can just go back. So that was the third.

The fourth then, as we said, you know, it's the opportunity to decarbonise transport. It's just massive. Once we get coal out of the system, the next biggest opportunity for us is to switch from petrol and diesel cars.

Biggest inhibitor on that, one of the, but increasingly becoming the, is lack of charging. And so, again, distribution networks can, and they have been doing trials to show this is possible, but putting chargers on poles, neighbourhood charging. Great.

And then the final one on that is you can coordinate all of these assets in ways that sync these assets with the grid, sync these different components of the grid. You can save a lot of money. Our report said $37 billion between now and 2050 in avoided costs if we are all smart in how we work together.

And that's when we talk about consume energy resources, distributed energy resources and being super smart on that. And the innovation is some of that is already happening in pockets and trials. But if we're really going to get off to it, we're going to put our foot down and show we can do this at scale and do this in a sustainable way.

[Sarah]

Wow. Tim.

[Tim] (14:15 - 14:23)

Sorry, I had to follow that. I think taking a step back to your question at the start, but I think a lot of people don't really know what distribution networks do.

[Sarah] (14:23 - 14:23)

No.

[Tim] (14:24 - 14:36)

I think the only time people really actually engage in distribution networks is during storms. You know, the lights go out, you know, how the wires are down, trees are falling, that sort of thing. Then people are very engaged about when's their power coming back up.

[Sarah] (14:36 - 14:37)

Absolutely.

[Tim] (14:37 - 14:40)

And then they forget about it for another 360 odd days of the year.

[Sarah] (14:40 - 14:40)

Yeah.

[Tim] (14:41 - 15:56)

And I think it's really important to explain to people how they interact with energy and what the distribution networks for. And I think, you know, we talked about the duck curve just then. You can actually move a lot of load around by explaining to people when are the best times to do things.

So, in the old days, when the coal plants were going through the night, actually a lot of things were encouraged to happen between midnight and 6 a.m. because there was still that sort of base level that needs to be soaked up. Now, in a very heavy solar grid, you actually want people to do an awful lot more stuff during the middle of the day.When that excess solar is sloshing around the grid edge, you want people to put on their washing machine, their dishwasher. If they're lucky enough to have a pool, pool pump, all those sort of things. If you can charge your car at that time, you've got an EV.

Because actually by shifting things around, you can actually avoid huge amounts of upgrade required for the grid. So, as well as being able to kind of move sort of when power is generated, we're moving to a world now where we're trying to move some of where power is consumed. There's always going to be power that has to be consumed in the evening and things like that.

But actually, it's quite a lot you can move around, especially domestically, into the middle of the day. And it's working to educate people to explain what the new kind of world is of duck curves and things like that to get people to shift it.

[Sarah] (15:56 - 16:05)

Do we need to introduce potentially tariffs in the middle of the day to make it much, much cheaper to encourage behaviour to do that? Like an off peak in the middle of the day?

[Dom] (16:05 - 16:06)

Like a time-of-use?

[Sarah] (16:06 - 16:14)

Yeah. Like another tariff. Cheaper tariff. How about really cheap?

Anyway, this is me as a consumer just hoping for these things.

[Dom] (16:17 - 17:04

But it is true. I mean, we do need strong signals to customers. That isn't like, oh, should I turn my air conditioner off and maybe save five cents.So, signals that would say, actually, it makes sense. It's easy. And if you change this kind of behaviour, you get a significant saving that is actually worth paying attention to.

But the more we can shift, and that's why EVs are such a great example, right? Because it is a sizeable load. And that's why we like our piece on neighbourhood charging, because actually the benefit of this is you can also see more cars plugged in during the day where a lot of people say, well, actually, I can't really charge it. My car at home any other time except in the evening. But if it's, you know, neighbourhood charging and it is plugged in during the day, you are seeing that soak up of solar in a way that's happening in a dynamic way.

[Sarah] (17:04 - 17:15)

But even workplaces could be putting in charging, if you drive to work, you can charge at work during the day and soak that up. When I was visiting Ausgrid, I was amazed by all the chargers there. Thank goodness they have that.

[Dom] (17:15 - 17:15)

Absolutely.

[Sarah] (17:16 - 17:23)

A 60-kilowatt DC charger there, I got to use it, it was great.

Probably need to close that or something.

[Dom] (17:23 - 17:25)

Free charging at Ausgrid's offices.

[Sarah] (17:26 - 17:50)I was just going there for a visit. So, so far we've talked about distribution networks and their vital role in Australia's energy system. But let's zoom out a little bit.

So, let's talk about, wait for it, another acronym, as you want to use, the ISP or Integrated System Plan. But firstly, could one of you please explain, maybe you, Tim, could explain what is the Integrated System Plan before I ask questions?

[Tim] (17:50 - 17:56)

Yes. So, where to start? It's a document produced by AEMO, which is the system operator.

[Sarah] (17:56 - 17:56)

What is that?

[Tim] (17:57 - 17:59)

The Australian Energy Market Operator.

[Sarah] (17:59 - 18:00)

Thank you. Excellent.

[Tim] (18:00 - 19:18)

Which is the system operator, amongst other things, for the national electricity market. So, the idea of a system operator is that it kind of constantly balances in real time the generation and load demand on the network because, by and large, electricity can't really be stored. So, you're constantly bringing power sources on and matching it to the load.

So, the system operator is doing that at transmission level. So that's the big motorways of power, as we talked about earlier. And every year, or every two years, sorry, they produce a document that looks at, looks ahead and forecasts what's required in terms of how they think demand is going to go up and therefore where the different sources of energy are going to come from, electricity going to come from to meet that.

And obviously, one of the big topics we have at the moment is the gradual retirement of the coal plants. Last year, it was about 60 percent coal generation on the network. That's starting to come down.

And over time, that's going to have to be replaced by other sources. So, we have things like renewable energy zones in the different states and also brings into consideration some of the rooftop solar as well and how that plays in. So, it's a very 60,000-foot sort of view of the whole of the national electricity market and works out how things will evolve over the next few decades.

[Sarah] (19:18 - 19:30)

OK, so that's a good summary. Yeah, that was amazing. So, Dom, why is this plan considered so integral to achieving a successful energy transition?

[Dom] (19:30 - 20:59)

Well, can you imagine us all operating without a plan? So, you know, and a lot of jurisdictions do go, actually, we really like what Australia is doing in the space, that it is an integrated whole of system plan as much as it says it is. Right now, it's getting a lot of flack, I think, because people want it to do more than what it's doing.

But we should acknowledge that it is actually doing quite a lot and we should acknowledge the role that AEMO play in an enormous kind of operating one of the largest grids, if not the largest grid in the world. So it's not a small, it's not a small job what they do. And I think putting out a plan allows us to even throw rocks at it. That is a good thing.

We need to get better, though, I think, at really testing the different assumptions that go in and being able to do. And I think this is where Tim in New South Wales looking at more dynamic kind of lens on the distribution network, recognising this is moving at fast speeds, bringing in more EVs is going to do different things in terms of how I can soak it up.

So, whilst it's in there, it's a pretty static input. Now, you can't go fully optimised because it would take by the time you finish running that, you know, the compute power is going to take forever to actually do it. And you're going to be asking it too much.

But there is a balance between technology that's available and what we really would like it to get to that we need to be moving to. And I think AEMO, I know AEMO are keen to look at that more and the likes of Ausgrid are.

[Tim] (20:59 - 21:33)

Yeah, I think some of the issues around it, it's always been very top down because it's such a vast thing. You've got to start somewhere. And if you look around the world with other nations do these sort of plans, having come from the UK, everything called future energy scenarios, which is very similar, you're very much taking a top-down view because that way it makes it just about manageable.

But actually, as we go forward, we also need to add in the bottom-up element. And I think that's where some of The Times is Now report came in is really understanding what the potential is if you build bottom-up from the distribution networks upwards as opposed to the transmission networks downwards. And I think that's the real opportunity that we're trying to explore out here in New South Wales.

[Sarah] (21:33 - 21:50)

Yeah, love it. So, Tim, the ISP clearly lays a strong foundation at a national level, but there's an opportunity to dive deeper into regional needs. When we look at a state like New South Wales, what more can be done to unlock the value that already exists in distribution networks?

[Tim] (21:50 - 23:15)

I think the idea with approaching it from the other angle is sort of building back up is why we're working with our two kind of peer networks in New South Wales, so Endeavour Energy and Essential, to say if you start at the bottom-up and work upwards to see what the full potential is at the distribution level and then see how that matches up and marries with the ISP coming from the transmission level viewpoint to see what the gap is.

So, our thinking here is if you really maximise what can be done at distribution level and there's two main levers there. The first one is at the grid edge with rooftop solar and batteries working in harmony to really see how far you can stretch that if you really push the percentage uptake of solar and see what that can do. There's also what we call the sub-transmission level, which is slightly away from the grid edge.

It's more the kind of slightly bigger roads. But before you get to the motorways, to keep that analogy going, what can you put in there? So, for example, in the Ausgrid territory, we've got the Hunter, big area where there's a lot of potential for renewables, especially solar, but also wind.

How much of that can be realised and be connected into the distribution network? So, if you really maximise both of those aspects, how much of the energy needs for Ausgrid's territory, so for our customers, can be served by generation that's connected within our territory? So that sort of self-serve idea.

[Sarah] (23:15 - 23:16)

So, you're not having to build massive transition lines?

[Tim] (23:16 - 23:37)

And so then, yeah, then the difference is almost what you pull through from the transmission grid. It comes from the big REZ’s and other large scale generation sources like that. And again, that will then give you an idea of what is the possibility.

So, you know, what can the transmission networks deliver versus what can the distribution networks do? And then see what the kind of gap is and how those two work together.

[Sarah] (23:38 - 23:51)

Does that mean if you're generating energy closer to the source, so rooftop solar, there's fewer losses as well? Because if energy is travelling a long way over long transmission lines, is it better to have it closer to the source?

[Tim] (23:51 - 24:13)
You always get some, yeah, you get losses and the losses are predicated by how far you've got to move the power. So, it's a very small percentage, really, in the grand scheme of things. But it's still a loss.

And transmission losses are slightly lower than distribution losses because that's the whole reason you step the voltage up. But there are losses and the shorter you can make the distance, the better from that perspective.

[Sarah] (24:14 - 24:55)

I had an amazing trip to Essential Energy, by the way. I saw all their House of the Future and I saw their battery on a pole. And it was talking about innovation and their pole charger, that award winning pole charger.

It was really amazing to see. Clearly, people are thinking about stuff. And I actually think we do need to let the public know about that stuff, which is why I was up there to tell people about it, because it is, it's amazing.

And as a consumer, I'm like, oh, good, people are doing things and thinking about stuff. Excellent. All right.

So actually, I have another question for you, Tim. Implementing a distribution ISP sounds promising, but it's not without challenges. What do you see as the biggest hurdles in getting this off the ground?

And is there one thing that we should prioritise?

[Tim] (24:56 - 26:52)

I think the big challenge is it's almost time. It's a volume of data issue, because obviously, as you get down to the grid edge, you've got hundreds, if not thousands of feeders, which are the lines that come from the substations and then eventually go off to individual people's homes as the voltage steps down. And to get to the level of being able to really understand that granularity will require time.

And so, this idea for the distribution ISP isn't a novel idea. We've sort of borrowed it from the UK, which has had a thing called DFES, which was an extension of their future energy scenarios to make them distribution future energy scenarios. And they've taken over a decade to get to that level of being able to really have a feeder by feeder, almost street by street level view of the distribution networks and the potential and the power of what could be done at that level.

So, it's not something you can just click your fingers and instantaneously get the perfect, fully baked answer. So, what we're trying to do in this first iteration, along with Essential and Endeavour Energy, is to get a good mid-level view of what is the potential of our networks together and what we can do collectively for New South Wales. What we hope is that over time, we can iterate and add more levels of analysis, more granularity and take it down to that very, very detailed view, because that's where the real power and the real potential comes through, being able to very much understand what is the amount of solar you can have in a particular kind of area, how much storage would you need to maximise that solar as EVs start to increase, how do they impact the grid and how the dynamics of the grid work as other businesses, so other SMEs or bigger, kind of higher users of electricity, as they start to electrify and move off gas, what do they do to the network? And that sort of richness will come through, but it will take time. It requires that sort of level of effort.

[Sarah] (26:52 - 27:03)

And I guess the technology is changing all the time in that, yes, we've got electric vehicles now, but then we're going to have vehicle to home, vehicle to grid and then home batteries and all those things. I feel like that's going to happen quite quickly, isn't it?

[Tim] (27:03 - 27:29)
And I think it's a very dynamic process. And again, you can't just take a snapshot in time and that's fixed and you work off that. It will constantly evolve.

And you can see it even today on a particular street. If a few people get an EV, that changes how the feeder supplying that street gets loaded and the kind of shape of the curves and the kind of the way that the power is flowing at that point. So, it's constantly evolving.

You need to be able to kind of dynamically update your thinking and your models.

[Sarah] (27:29 - 27:53)

Wow. Well, thank you so much. I've actually once again learnt so much.

I'm sure our listeners have as well. So, to wrap things up, I'd like to actually hear from both of you. What excites you most about the potential for distribution network service providers or DNSPs to drive Australia's energy transition?

And if you could make one change today to accelerate this progress, what would it be? I'm going to start with you, Dom.

[Dom] (27:53 - 29:35)

OK, well, I'm probably going to finish where I started, which is I think we did highlight a number of areas you could get after and a number of areas you could get after straight away. But I think the one that we could really get after is the EV charging and maybe just to explain this a little bit further. If we know that a third of Australians are thinking of buying an EV, I think you've spoken about these stats before, Sarah, and then the major barrier to them actually buying an EV is lack of charging.

And the frightening statistic is like 50 percent of Australians that actually have an EV today are thinking, actually, I might go back to a diesel or petrol car. Because of the lack of charging. So, what can we put in place that gets more charging across areas that you need it?

But this is a real chicken and egg scenario, right? Because we haven't got enough EVs. You haven't got enough commercial kind of operating points that makes sense to have the volume of charges in because they're just literally not paying for themselves.

And so, getting more chargers in early, more people buying EVs means that those chargers end up paying for themselves. And so, what we're advocating for is classify chargers, these neighbourhood chargers, pole mounted chargers, classify them as a distribution service and allow us to run it through the normal process we ordinarily would. But importantly, it doesn't mean that you're blocking out competition for others.

We've heard some pushback on this saying, oh, this is just, you know, monopolies not doing enough on the one hand and then going too far and trying to do more than poles and wires. And it's not that. It's saying we will install and operate and we will operate them well because we do operate the network well and we make sure that stuff doesn't just not work.

It will work. Which is another problem. Which is a major one.

[Sarah] (29:35 - 29:35)

Yeah.

[Dom] (29:35 - 29:40)
But then it's open to competition. It means any of the charge point operators, any of the retailers can.

[Sarah] (29:40 - 29:41)

You're not the retailer.

[Dom] (29:41 - 30:11)
Provide the service offerings to customers. And so, you actually are encouraging competition. And so, one thing we'd say is classified as a distribution service.

Let the regulatory process, which is a good one, run its normal course. You know, check that this is what customers actually want in those areas. Get us a lot of charges in so that we catch up to the rest of the world.

We 63 EVs for a charger. The rest of the world is at 11. So, we've got a lot of runway to go.

Yeah. Let's make EVs far more prominent on the roads and carry on the trajectory that we really want.

[Sarah] (30:11 - 30:20)

I think people seeing them on the poles, it will encourage uptake going, oh, well, I could charge that anywhere. Even if it's at the back of your mind, you're saying, oh, I've got my, I could consider that now.

[Dom] (30:21 - 30:21)

Exactly.

[Sarah] (30:21 - 31:10)

That's fantastic. But I can't charge at home. Right.

So, I'm one of those people and have have struggled at times. And it's frustrating, especially in areas like the inner west of Sydney, where 67 percent of households cannot charge at home. And I reckon it's actually worse than that because people have garages and they're full of rubbish and their stuff.

I mean, their things. But they again don't park. I've got my neighbour, for example, doesn't park and they own an EV and they don't park in the garage.

That's beside the point. But yes, I do think it's holding people back and it's a frustration. And again, it reflects badly upon uptake and people considering it.

And there's a fear there, right, around charging. So, I just think on every pole would make me very, very happy. There you go.

Now, Tim, let's talk to you about this. What's one thing that you would like to see happen to accelerate?

[Tim] (31:10 - 32:30)

I absolutely agree with all the points Dom's made about EVs, so I won't add to that. But the one area I think is really helpful is around the rollout of batteries at the grid edge to really help drive the uptake of solar, because the issue we've got, solar's been so successful in Australia. You know, Australia is leading the world on grid edge solar deployment on residential properties, which is brilliant.

But we've got to a point where further progress is going to require soaking up that excess solar. We talked about the duck curve earlier. We've got so much energy sloshing around at the grid edge in lots of areas.

And before we can go any further with that solar, which is brilliant to have, you've got to have some mechanism soaking up so it doesn't cause problems to the networks. And so, we've started some early work on what we call community batteries. And I know that's been covered in another one of the podcasts.

But again, having the mechanism to drive that out further, because at the moment we have to ask for waivers for the batteries to deploy these community batteries. And being able to do that much quicker would be a great step forward because it's really essential to have that option to let electrons come from the roofs in the neighbourhood, get stored during the day, and then they can come back out at night. And that really helps you with the deployment of solar.

So, one thing I would love to see is a much faster rollout of community batteries.

[Sarah] (32:31 - 33:21)

Yeah, the idea of energy going to waste as a consumer, I just go, I can't cope with it. I'm like, oh, that just drives me nuts. Well, thank you both so much, Dom and Tim, for sharing your expertise today.

And thank you to everyone for listening to Wired For Good, conversations for a better energy future.

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