Electrification of the Home: A Household Revolution

We have an exciting discussion lined up today, something very close to my own heart. And to help us navigate this very important topic, I'm joined by two experts leading the charge in Australia's energy transition. Brendan French, CEO of Energy Consumers Australia, an advocate for consumer interests with an extensive background in customer and community advocacy. 

And Marc England, CEO of Ausgrid, a leader in energy transformation with a proven track record in driving innovation and growth in the sector. Thank you. Welcome. 

Today, we're exploring a household revolution at the heart of Australia's energy transition. Electrification is transforming how we power our homes, driving sustainability, resilience and energy independence, while reshaping the role of our electricity network. Moving away from gas and embracing renewable energy isn't just about the environment. 

It's about reducing costs, increasing convenience and empowering Australians to take control of their energy future. As households electrify, the electricity network becomes a critical enabler, ensuring the grid can support this shift effectively. So, to kick us off, Brendan and Marc, from your perspective, how important is home electrification in achieving Australia's energy goals? 

Are we moving fast enough to make it happen? Start with you, Brendan. 

[Brendan] (2:10 - 3:16) 

And that is quite literally the trillion-dollar question, isn't it? I think from our perspective; we try to put ourselves in the shoes of consumers and it's just demonstrably the case now. I can show you a rack of reports that are quite clear that there's good, hard economic benefit for consumers in electrifying their homes. 

So, we did some work a year or so ago with CSIRO and we're able to map that for a typical Australian household by 2030. If they're able to electrify both their home and their vehicle via an EV, then they'll be saving something in the order of about $2,200 a year. If they're able to add on top of that their own consumer energy resources, solar or battery, then they add an extra $1,000 or $1,200 on top of that. 

So, it becomes a very significant part of the household economy. So, while we're talking about big changes at a national and international level, there's also big opportunities at a domestic level. And we think it's really important that residential consumers and small businesses are given the right kind of information so they can steer into that and make all the best decisions when they arise in their lives. 

[Sarah] (3:16 - 3:19) 

What about you, Marc? Do you think we're moving quickly enough? 

[Marc] (3:20 - 3:53) 

I don't know what the right speed is, but we have to move at the speed that consumers are willing to move at. At the end of the day, we can't have this look like it's being done to them. So, they have to drive the pace. 

But as Brendan says, the opportunity is a bill-saving opportunity. So, I often get frustrated. There's a lot of discussion around the price of electricity, but not a lot of discussion about how you can reduce your energy bill by converting to electricity. 

And that's the key. Whether it's your electric vehicle or whether it's appliances in the home, there are clear savings to be had. As a sector, as a broader country, we need to make that case to consumers so they can see that opportunity. 

[Sarah] (3:53 - 4:06) 

I don't think that people realise that if you electrify your house, you're going to save money. I think people think, oh, my bills are going to get more expensive, that they kind of don't take into account you're losing a gas bill, for example. So, there's an instant saving if you get off gas. 

[Marc] (4:06 - 4:31) 

Well, I've met people who have bought an electric vehicle, and they worry about the electricity bill. But if you take an electric vehicle and put it on a typical Australian home, you add about 30 per cent of demand to that home. But your costs for fuel are about 10 or 15 per cent of what they were within a petrol vehicle. 

So, everyone forgets what they've left behind and sees the electricity bill rising, but actually their total costs have fallen. So, we need to just explain that a bit better, I think, as a sector. 

[Sarah] (4:31 - 4:49) 

Yeah, I agree. So, Brendan, electrification often comes with upfront costs. Are the long-term savings compelling enough to outweigh the initial investment or do households need more incentives? 

What's in it really for the homeowner? You've said, obviously, there's an initial cost saving, is that? 

[Brendan] (4:50 - 6:22) 

Yeah, there is. And it's an ongoing cost saving. So, the earlier, more comprehensively you can electrify, the greater the savings over time, obviously. 

And I like to sort of take a step or two back and say that the transition that people often hear about is as a macroeconomic level, it's huge. It's hard to sort of grasp at the very human domestic kind of level. And as a consequence, I think people sometimes feel sort of dwarfed by the decision. 

But they realise that there is going to be investment. There's going to be cost. We are, after all, transitioning away from sort of thermal heating that's been available to us for hundreds of years into an entirely different way to generate energy for our homes and businesses 

And that comes at a cost. And we do a lot of surveying, actually. And I just got some of the results on the way here, which I was talking to Marc about earlier. 

One of the things that interests me is, consumers believe that in the next two or three years, roughly a third of consumers think that renewables will cost them more. Roughly a third, a bit more than a third, think it will cost them less. And then a third are unsure. 

So basically, there's not a lot of information there. But if you ask them in the longer term, it goes up to 48% of people who think it's going to be better for their home or their small business bills by converting to renewables. So, people see that there's a bit of a hill that we're climbing. 

In some cases, maybe a mountain, I don't know. But that the long-term prospect is positive for them. And I think that's something that we really need to hold on to. 

[Sarah] (6:22 - 6:50) 

And that initial investment, if you're saving, let's say, over three grand a year, that stuff is paying, you're paying it off. Like it's paying, and then it will pay for itself. Yeah, like I'm sure you've made this outlay. 

But eventually, like if you put in a new kitchen, you don't go, how long will that pay for itself? Like you don't think of the things that we do to our homes in that way. But those things that we do to our houses actually genuinely will save you money in the long term. 

It's extraordinary, isn't it? 

[Brendan] (6:50 - 7:33) 

One of the most important things that we talk about is the fact that people need the right information to make that economic decision for them at the right time. So that is when their hot water system blows up, or they move into a new place, or they're renovating a kitchen, or whatever it happens to be. So, we often talk about the sort of the 2050 targets, 2040 targets. 

But there are energy decisions that people are making now that aren't probably in their best interest. And so, one thing that we really would like governments to continue to expand their focus on, and we see this is starting to happen, by the way, is to provide the right information to consumers. So, you know, we have to remember there's still several hundred thousand gas appliances sold every year. 

[Sarah] (7:33 - 7:38) 

And even incentives from those companies to put them in. 

[Brendan] (7:38 - 8:20) 

But also, you know, inefficient electric appliances. So, we think, you know, the more information that can be provided to consumers at the point in which they can make a beneficial decision, all the better, right? So, I know the thread count of the sheets that I have, right? 

I know the number of chickens in the acre that provide my eggs, but I don't really know, I'll be honest, the efficiency of my stove. I would find it hard to choose between hot water heat pumps, right? I would find it hard to understand which is the better investment for me. 

Is it solar or is it insulation? We feel that most consumers are calling out for more and better and simpler and more trustworthy. 

[Sarah] (8:20 - 8:39) 

Crying out for it. And people-led, a lot of this stuff is. My Efficient Electric Home on Facebook is one example that is a people-led group, which is an amazing resource. 

I used that when I electrified my house. There should be some kind of government website providing that information for people. There's a database there on heat pumps. 

That's how I chose mine. 

[Brendan] (8:39 - 8:48) 

Yeah, this is something that we're talking with governments about too, but it's really good to see, for example, the distributors and the retailers stepping into this as well because it's a logical place for people to go to get information. 

[Sarah] (8:49 - 8:56) 

So Marc, what are the biggest barriers to stopping households from electrifying today? Is it awareness? Is it infrastructure or something else entirely? 

[Marc] (8:57 - 11:02) 

It's not infrastructure, but we'll maybe come back to that one. I think one of the challenges we're just talking about, Brendan's saying, is that the narrative is confusing for people. So, I see three layers of this narrative, often all discussed as electrification. 

And the first one is decarbonising the grid. And there's a lot in the media around that. And I think the media could do more on the other ends. 

But at that end of town, that's about new wind farms or solar farms or building renewable energy zones, which is removing these coal-fired power stations over time. That's going to have the biggest impact on a national level on emissions as a whole. And then as you sort of come downstream into that, there's then also the generation downstream, which is solar panels and batteries on rooftops and so on. 

And that's going to have a meaningful impact too. And including, I count in that electrification of transport. And then you come to the home, and the home is probably the smallest part of it. 

Because if you think about the total emissions of Australia, I think, and someone will fact check me on this. But the total emissions, the biggest part of the pie, which is 40% of our emissions is power generation. And then transport is in the high teens, 17 to 20%. 

And the home is somewhere between 7, 11%, depending on where you are in Australia. And so, the media focused upstream on the big stuff. But if the media came downstream to help people understand and talk about that opportunity, the cost saving in your bills, then I think more people would start to understand it too. 

Because what we hear in the media is a lot of talk about high cost and the impact this is going to have on consumer bills over time. But we can all see, those of us working in the sector, that the opportunity downstream is you can save money. And you can save money now. 

So, I think information is key. And I think there's many different parties. And we want to play a role in that too. 

But I think the media could help. Infrastructure will need to adapt over time. But we've got a lot of capacity in our network to absorb more electricity demand. 

So Ausgrid, and I know some of our equivalent networks not sitting there going, oh, well, when this demand comes, we're going to have a big problem. We're not going to have a big problem. We've just got to make sure that we can, in some examples, like electric vehicles, shift that demand to the right times of the day. 

But there's capacity there. And over time, that will fill up. But we're not anywhere near that yet. 

[Sarah] (11:04 - 11:14) 

Brendan, do you think Australians need convincing to electrify their homes? Or is this shift already happening? What are the trends that you're seeing? 

[Brendan] (11:14 - 13:44) 

It's a mixed picture. 

It also depends where you live too. Our data indicates pretty comprehensively that if you live in a place where the attendant policy in your state or territory is very renewables focused, then you'll be thinking about renewables in your own life. There's a very clear trickle-down effect. 

And so, we're seeing, for example, considerations of the abolishment of gas in those jurisdictions where people are subject to policies where that's likely to occur. And one thing that's pretty clear when we look at where consumers are in their thinking, then 80% of people say that they do not have the information they need to make a decision that's in their best interest. And that's not lack of willingness. 

It's not necessarily resistance. But it is pretty clearly the case that in the absence of a sort of a meta-narrative, you know, something that brings us all together under a message, and in the absence of that really clear, concise, reliable information when I need it to make the decision that I need, in the absence of those two things, there's a lot of conversation happening that is probably counterproductive. And that sort of prays to people's sort of insecurity and uncertainty. 

I mean, I guess I'm by default a people optimist. I think given the right opportunity, people make good decisions and they're reliably good decisions. I've seen lots of big redesign and social redesign projects around the world over many years. 

And where people can be brought into the fold and it can be made clear to them the purpose for it, then they tend to adopt it pretty quickly. I think nations probably agree what they disagree about. And for whatever reason, for the last couple of decades, Australians have sort of chosen to disagree about energy at a political and other level. 

And I think that that's unfortunate. It's probably delayed a lot of decisions that we otherwise have made. But it's certainly not too late. 

And there's some great thinking and great innovation that's happening all across the country, including at local community level to actually address this. So, I feel quite positive about where we're going, but I would really love to see Australians sort of brought into the fold more fully. 

[Sarah] (13:44 - 14:46) 

I think not just the consumer brought into the fold. I'd like to actually see tradies brought into the fold. A lot of plumbers, someone's gas hot water dies, and they go, well, I've just got another gas hot water heater in the van. 

I'll just switch it over. And some of them are actually quite resistant to a hot water heat pump. Haven't done the training. 

Oh, it's more complex. They just don't want anything to do with it. They're old school. 

And people use the same plumber for years or they get advice on who to use on the local group. And then they go with the advice of that tradie because they think they're the expert. I think there's a bit of a gap there in terms of knowledge and what people are being told in that whole sector. 

So, the average Australian home is only three stars out of 10. I'll just point that out. But in the ACT, if you want to rent or sell a property, you have to get a star rating, an energy efficiency rating of that property. 

And that empowers renters and buyers to know if you're buying a two-star home, well, then your bills are going to be high. You'll be paying a lot more. I personally think that should be rolled out nationally. 

[Marc] (14:46 - 15:04) 

It's the same in the UK. When I left 11 years ago, they'd introduced that. Now they keep raising the bar. 

So, if you're renting a home, there's a minimum standard now. So, it's put the onus on the landlord to make it more efficient. If you get a survey, they give you advice on how you can get a higher rating. 

So, then that starts to inform the owner or the buyer or the renter. 

[Sarah] (15:05 - 16:12) 

My house was 2.9 stars out of 10 when I first got it assessed. But because we had solar, it bumped it up to 5.5 stars. So even just putting in solar, in fact, you can't even achieve a 10-star rating without solar. 

So, there's an incentive right there. So, my electrification journey, I took my house, as I said, from a 2.9-star home to a 10-star home. We now use a quarter of the electricity we used to in winter from the grid. 

We went from over 42 kilowatt hours a day to 12. So, it's pretty amazing. So, we're thrilled with everything we've done. 

Hot water heat pump, induction stove, topped up the roof insulation, underfloor insulation, as I said, reverse cycle, wall splits. What else have we done? That's about it, I think 

And solar, small solar array. So, it's really over a hundred-year home that's, and also draft proofing, that's now working to its absolute, at its absolute best. And it's extraordinary. 

It's actually a different house to live in. I'd love to hear about what either of you have done in your electrification journey, if you are on one. 

[Brendan] (16:14 - 16:16) 

Mine's a little bit problematic, actually. 

[Sarah] (16:17 - 16:18) 

I love it. Do tell. 

[Brendan] (16:19 - 17:10) 

We've moved into a house a few years ago and it's very, very old, sort of 1840s terrace. 

It's 50 metres from Hyde Park in Sydney. So, you would think that it should be reasonably easy for us. The quotes that I've had for solar at the roof are sort of reasonably eye-watering and they've said basically, you might only get $50 to $100 off your bill maximum. 

Just because of the pitch of the roof, it's hard to put power. So that's a little challenging, which is why I'm very interested in sort of Marc's idea of being able to, if you like, timeshare somebody else's roof, right? There's no sort of off-street parking. 

So again, we have this challenge of trying to charge a vehicle. I will need to electrify in stages as both policy makes it available to me and as I need to replace things in the house. 

[Sarah] (17:10 - 17:15) 

I think everyone needs to remember that. You don't have to do what I did, which was all at once. It's definitely a journey. 

[Marc] (17:16 - 17:50) 

My challenge is I keep moving country and therefore house. I've left two houses behind that had electric hobs, for example, by the time we left, but I've now got a gas hob, which I've got to replace. But my story is, driving electric vehicles for eight years now and so I kind of electrified my transport a long time ago. 

But each time I move house, there's more to do and in the house we're in at the moment, reasonably well insulated, lots of glass, but sealed with electric heating and cooling already in there. But the hot water and the hob are still gas, and we will migrate off that in the next couple of years. 

[Sarah] (17:50 - 17:53) 

You and I'll talk about induction stoves and the hot water heat pumps then. 

[Marc] (17:54 - 17:56) 

You've already given me some good insights on the hot water. 

[Sarah] (17:56 - 18:10) 

Oh yeah. I love my hot water heat pumps. Blinking brilliant. 

All right, Marc, as households electrify, they'll become more reliant on the grid. Can the grid handle this increased demand or are there significant changes that need to happen to support the transition? 

[Marc] (18:11 - 19:23) 

Yeah, the transition will happen gradually in many cases. I think some of the things that could impact the grid in a more acute way are large data centres, but the home itself, electrifying, will happen gradually. Even electric vehicles, we're not too worried about. 

We've got spare capacity today and a lot of electric vehicle charging can be time-based. Anyone who owns an electric vehicle knows that unless you're doing four hours driving a day, you don't need to charge every day. And when you plug your car in, you've got quite a lot of flexibility about when you might charge it. 

And so, cars either have timers or chargers are controllable and so they can charge at the lowest cost and highest renewable times, which is generally during the day or in the early evening or late evening, sorry. So, I think as long as technology allows demands to be controlled to some extent, with one big caveat, not at the customer's detriment, I would say, you know, customers should never be told when to cook their dinner. But a car is flexible. 

So, we're not too worried about that. It will, if everyone in our patch had an electric vehicle, that doesn't today, it could probably increase our peak demand in the evenings by about 10%, we estimate. So over time, our network will need to augment because sometimes people have to charge at peak hours, right? 

[Sarah] (19:23 - 19:33) 

And that's so little. I get comments all the time on my social media accounts going, if everyone bought an electric car, the grid can't take it. So, thank you for answering that question. 

[Marc] (19:33 - 19:43) 

And networks around the world have often said that. And I don't buy into that. I used to be a retailer, and I used to find that frustrating because I know as a retailer, we gave a 50% discount after 9pm. 

[Sarah] (19:43 - 19:44) 

Right. 

[Marc] (19:44 - 20:24) 

And guess what? No one charged before 9pm. So, pricing signals can shift consumer behaviours as well as the algorithms that control these things too. 

So, it will increase demand if everyone has an electric vehicle, but we've got time to plan for that and there'll be a bit of incremental spend required. But our goal is to make sure the grid is used as efficiently as possible. Electric vehicles will help that because if we can get more electric vehicles in the system and they can use the power in the troughs when people are not using power otherwise, whether that's charging at work during the day when you're at work or in the evening when you're asleep, we get a better utilisation. 

And therefore, the cost of the grid is spread over more kilowatt hours, and everyone pays less per kilowatt hour. 

[Brendan] (20:24 - 20:25) 

I love that. 

[Marc] (20:25 - 20:26) 

That's where we're heading. 

[Brendan] (20:26 - 20:57) 

Some good research out of California have done some good comparisons in some of the patches there that showed us this sort of win-win-win effect. Win for the person buying who can afford and buy the EV, but also a considerable win for energy firms who are making good money and for the rest of the population who is getting the benefit of better network utilisation. So, it's one of those rare instances where it seems positive across the board. 

[Marc] (20:57 - 21:40) 

I mean, historically, demand was not flexible. So, before we had any electric vehicles or controllable heat pumps or batteries in our homes, we just did what we did when we did it. And demand was very rigid, even though it flexed during the day. 

At a certain time of day, it was what it was. And so actually historically, that's why power stations are very flexible. Gas-fired power stations that can turn on and off at a moment's notice. 

One of the transitions I think is happening here is the grid becomes less flexible because the wind will blow when the wind blows and the sun shines when it shines. Demand needs to be more flexible to match it in real time. And battery storage will play a role in that, but also some consumer resources that are sitting behind the meter will be able to provide some of that flex too. 

So that's where we're ultimately in a more efficient outcome for everyone, hopefully. 

[Sarah] (21:41 - 22:03) 

Wow, I love that. So, we've been talking about city households a lot, primarily. Electrification is easier for city households, but is it a different story for rural or remote areas? 

And this is to both of you. How do the challenges of electrification differ across those regions? What's the solution for more remote households? 

We'll start with you, Marc. 

[Marc] (22:03 - 22:38) 

I think a house is a house. So, I mean, the kind of in the house kind of electrification of your hob and your hot water and all the other things that consume energy. As long as there's electricity to your property, you can electrify. 

And that's the thing I always think everyone should remember. We already have a power source that is lower carbon and will be increasing low carbon over time coming to your home. So that bit of it is easy. 

And actually, in more rural environments there's generally more roof space to have solar panels and maybe more space to have a battery. And in urban environments, that's harder, particularly in shared accommodation or apartment blocks, it's harder. So, I think the opportunity really sits there actually in the less urban environment. 

[Sarah] (22:38 - 22:39) 

Interesting. What about you, Brendan? 

[Brendan] (22:42 - 24:21) 

Australia is a very big place. And there are a number of communities now that for the foreseeable future, for instance, will need to continue to rely on bottled gas or even diesel in some very remote communities. But over time, you can see a business case for just about all communities to electrify. 

And it also, I think, is important to recall that because of these extraordinary distances, it's sometimes going to be more cost effective. And I'm sort of walking onto your territory now, I guess. To create sort of a microgrid, if you like, a little, a standalone system to service a small community of 100, 200, 300 people rather than a 200-kilometre feeder.

[Sarah] 

And that would be more resilient against storms and fires, taking out long transmission. 

[Brendan] 

Very often, very often. And solar is for a lot of these communities a wonderful option because they also, in some instances, happen to be the hottest postcodes with the longest days and so on. So, you know, there is not going to be a single solution. 

And I think it's reasonably naive to think that there's one day the switch is going to be turned off and on and the world will be different. It will have to be locally determined and designed. But we're really quite positive about some of the really innovative and sometimes quite ingenious methods that we're seeing being rolled out across communities. 

All we need is for some of those to be scaled out and utilised elsewhere. 

[Marc] (24:22 - 25:34) 

So, we would agree with that. I think there is a double-edged sword, so resilience comes from having multiple options. And so, the challenge sometimes in a microgrid context, if something goes wrong within your microgrid, you're not connected to the network. 

You may not have that backup source that everyone else has. However, it will work, and it is working in some outback areas to have a microgrid in certain towns. But we see that happening, possibly even in suburban areas. 

So, I think the big shift we're talking about here is where supply of electricity can be much closer to where the demand is. And that can be true in a suburb of Sydney, as much as an outback town, as long as there are places you can put that supply. So, warehouse roofs for solar is one of the untapped resources that we're thinking a lot about. 

And just like in a tenant-landlord scenario, there's a dislocation there between the incentives on a landlord and a tenant in a large warehouse where the landlord doesn't pay for the electricity bills. They go, why would I put solar on the roof? And the tenant has a very small electricity demand relative to the space of the roof. 

So they go, why would I put solar on the roof? But actually, the community might benefit from having it there. So, you have a sort of semi-micro grid, which is as independent as you can be in that geographical area but still connected to the grid for backup or cloudy days or storms or whatever. 

[Sarah] (25:35 - 25:44) 

So right now, electrification is often seen as a decision for households to make. It's a personal decision. What role should the electricity industry and networks play in this transition? 

[Marc] (25:45 - 27:08) 

I think we are one of many parties involved here, but we need to do a better job at explaining to customers what they need to consider. I mean, that's partly what this podcast is talking about. We need to demystify some of the confusing things. 

We need to provide information on our website. And I think there isn't just, at the moment, there isn't a really good single source to go to. If you're thinking about electrifying your home, you can, it's hard to get ahead around the costs. 

The tradies, as you said, are not necessarily geared up to do it either. So, I think Ausgrid can play a role in that. We want to play a role in that. 

I just, I want us to just tackle the gas question as well, because not a simple, a complicated issue is what we do about gas networks. And obviously, Ausgrid doesn't have a gas network, but it is a real challenge for the broader distribution sector as to how we manage the phasing out of gas in homes. And, you know, you don't want to be the last hundred customers on the gas network paying for the whole thing. 

So, the question is, how does the regulatory model evolve to allow customers to get off gas without a disincentive, with a big fee when you leave, but also with those that own the gas networks getting a fair return for that asset? So that's one of the big barriers, I think, as we work through this as a broader sector. But we can play a role in that, and we need to play a productive role in that. 

And so, it's partly about educating consumers where we can, but also solving some of those hard to solve issues that are real problems in this energy transition. 

[Sarah] (27:08 - 27:31) 

Yes, I would love to see that outrageously expensive abolishment fee go in New South Wales for when you've spent all that money getting off gas and then you're smashed at the end by that. So, I would love to see us follow Victoria's path. Brendan, what can electricity providers and policymakers do to make electrification more accessible and appealing for households? 

I feel like that'd be one of them. 

[Brendan] (27:33 - 29:27) 

I think a lot of the policy focus to date has been very much up the supply end, up the capacity generation, which is logical. I don't criticise that. They had to get more capacity into the markets. 

It had to sort of be underwritten by the right kind of investment. But what I guess we'd like to see is the emphasis shift further from the supply side to what's often called the demand side, sort of the consumer side. Because it's pretty clear that when incentivised, when given opportunities, Australians kind of step up to the mark. 

I mean, we've just hit four million homes with solar on the roof now, which is world beating, number one. So given the opportunity, I think Australians are up for it.  

[Sarah] 

We do like to save a bit of money. 

[Brendan] 

Well, indeed, it's save money, but it's also do the right thing. It's a whole variety of incentives that people have and motivations, right? But what I think is quite important, though, is Australians are sort of poised, I think, to make good and effective and efficient decisions for themselves, their businesses, their families and so on. 

But they're unsure where to go for information. We've mentioned that before. But also, whether it's reliable or not. 

We did a report last year, or some research, we surveyed several thousand people across the country, small businesses, residential consumers and so on. And we asked them what they remember about what they've been told for energy, because it's often important not just that people see things, but what they recall, right? What was really quite striking is 59 percent, and this number's etched in my brain, 59 percent of residential consumers and 69 percent of small businesses have no recollection of having seen anything in the last 12 months, the 12 months prior, that would help them with their bills or that would help them with home energy efficiency. 

So, they're not seeing it. 

[Sarah] (29:27 - 29:27) 

They're not seeing it. 

[Brendan] (29:28 - 29:33) 

And then when you ask the remainder, what do you remember? They'll say, oh, I saw a retailer ad on the telly. 

[Sarah] (29:34 - 29:34) 

Wow. 

[Brendan] (29:34 - 29:42) 

I'm not saying that there aren't programs out there or that governments, energy firms, consumer advocates, regulators. 

[Sarah] (29:43 - 29:44) 

People like me on social media. 

[Brendan] (29:45 - 30:31) 

I'm not saying that people aren't out there providing information, but I don't think it's stitched up and I don't think it's encapsulated under a narrative that people will understand. I mean, we're, you know. 

[Sarah] 

We’re really talking about communication.  

[Brendan] 

Yeah. Well, it's communication, but it's not just sloganeering. So, we're all enough to education, life being a slip, slop, slap. 

These are kind of a foundational campaigns in Australian history, trying to change behaviours, as much what this is about as anything else. But we see there's a real absence of that kind of narrative and then the trusted advice that sits underneath it. Then I don't, I think it'll come, but I wouldn't want it to wait. 

[Sarah] (30:31 - 30:31) 

No. 

[Brendan] (30:32 - 30:34) 

Because people are looking now. 

[Sarah] (30:34 - 30:57) 

I mean, my whole thing is that I never tell people what to do. I just help people. I want them to make informed decisions. 

I want them to know that when their gas hot water dies, there's this other thing called a hot water heat pump. It exists. It's up to you whether you buy it or not, but you're not going to buy it unless you know about it. 

And the number, I didn't even know what a hot water heat pump looked like until I started this journey. So, there's definitely a lack of information out there. 

[Marc] (30:57 - 31:44) 

There is, but we're also putting a lot of pressure on consumers to do all this. And I think, you know, it's, I'm just trying to think of a parallel, but imagine if electricity was just being rolled out for the first time and we put all the onus on consumers to work out how to get it to their house. And so, I think us in the sector have to provide some of the role in simplifying things and enabling them and almost making it almost intuitive. 

So, I'll give you one example. EV charging, we're big fans, you know, of curbside charging. Australia has something like 50 plus cars per public charger at the moment. 

The world average is 10 cars per public charger. Netherlands, the world leader, is four cars per public charger. And so, we don't have enough public chargers. 

So, we're a big fan of, and 30% of our network don't have driveways and garages. So, we're looking at it going, well, how can we help that? 

[Sarah] (31:44 - 31:46) 

And higher in areas like where I live in the Inner West. 

[Marc] (31:46 - 32:41) 

Yes. Yeah, well, some areas are incredibly dense. So, we're looking at it going, well, can we put curbside charges on existing infrastructure, power poles, and just make it available? 

It's something that a well-regulated monopoly can do. We provide the infrastructure, the cost gets socialised a bit, which for some people is contentious, but it's a relatively low cost in the big scheme of things for the network. And then consumers see the charges and go, well, it's going really easy for me to buy an electric vehicle now. 

Instead of they've got to work out how they're going to charge their car. I mean, I remember going to visit a car dealer in Australia about eight or nine years ago and talking about electric vehicles. And I realised the first time the dealers were having to talk about how to fuel the car. 

They'd never sold a car and had a customer say, how do I fuel this thing? Because the fuel was ubiquitous. And so, in some ways, part of our role in the sector is to make it easy. 

And that's one example I think we need to work on. But there'll be others because consumers can't be expected to make all the decisions and work this all out for themselves. 

[Sarah] (32:42 - 32:49) 

In your role in the industry, the industry that you're both in, what would you like your legacy to be? I'll start with you, Brendan. 

[Brendan] (32:50 - 33:53) 

What I think is perhaps lacking, at least in some degree, is that consumers are well represented, that they have proper standing in the decisions that affect them. So I'd very much like to see sort of a policy philosophy across the board, up and down governments and across the sector that starts with the consumer and designs from the consumer out, rather than, as we see sometimes, the consumer is almost just sort of an artifact of a policy decision that needs to be made separately. So if a consumer can genuinely be sort of the beginning and the end of all things for the sector, and there's a genuine acknowledgement that energy is essential and that it's only becoming more essential, then I think we might get better, more cohesive decisions across the board, but also better buy-in from consumers because they'll be able to see themselves reflected in what's coming at them. 

I think at the moment, that's not always true.  

[Sarah] 

And you'll be fighting for that.  

[Brendan] 

I will. 

[Sarah] (33:54 - 33:55) 

What about you, Marc? 

[Marc] (33:55 - 34:58) 

We're very aligned. About 15 years ago, I was in the UK and I worked out that really what my purpose was that motivated me in my career was to change the way consumers engage with energy. Back then, it was all about smart meters and I was in a role where we thought smart meters would be transformational in that regard. 

Looking back on it, they're the first step in many steps that needed to make this transformation happen. But I've always been motivated about how do we get consumers more engaged in that? Now I've gone from generation retail through three different countries and markets, and now I'm in distribution and it's just the same problem with different solutions. 

And I think distributors can play a pretty active role in that. So, I'm motivated by trying to play our part in that, which is everything we've talked about today, including providing more information, but also doing some of the things that are more invisible that people don't see. I've talked about curbside charging, but there's many other things like community batteries, which will lower the cost of storage in the network and then things that a well-regulated monopoly can do to lower the cost of this transition for consumers, while also trying to help them on their journey to electrify. 

That's what motivates me. 

[Sarah] (34:58 - 35:11) 

So, before we finish, what's the one most important action we can take now, right now, to accelerate the electrification of homes in Australia? I'll start with you, Brendan. You get one. 

[Brendan] 

I just get one, OK. 

[Brendan] (35:14 - 35:25) 

Look, one thing I would maybe, I'd maybe emphasise is for most people, it's going to be a combination of electrification and energy efficiency. 

[Sarah] (35:25 - 35:27) 

Right, yes. Insulation is so important. 

[Brendan] (35:27 - 38:04) 

Yeah, I think it's the two and the benefit of these for a consumer and something that's often not discussed, I think. Is every degree of heat that you can save or contain in your home has been charged from generation, through distribution, through retail and into your home. 

So, consumers are naturally paying a marginal on each of these. And so, the ability for a consumer to control their usage to the degree that they're able to and comfortable to and that it's safe for them to do so. And it's critical because it means that they can have a level of agency over their bill that washes back up the system because that allows them, if they wish, to distribute their load, reshape their load across the day. 

And that has implications for network design and augmentation over the years. It allows them to seek a better and different contracts and pricing, again, if it suits them and if they're in a physical environment where they're able to participate in that way. But that level of consumer agency, I think, is ultimately critical. 

But there is a difference, as Marc's mentioned, between consumer agency and exertion. At this point, particularly when it comes to seeking out contracts and a whole variety of things, it's basically all on the consumer to do the work. And that naturally privileges people who are able, who've got the time, who've got the level of English language literacy, who know what a kilowatt hour is. 

And it privileges people who may already have a level of benefit accruing to them in the market anyway. So, there are good parts of the population that we feel might end up underserved and paying more than they need to. So, the more that can be done for consumer agency, for people to make decisions just at the time they need it, they don't need to prepare for it years before, as you were saying. 

But with a particular regard, a sort of a safety net regard to those consumers who are not well-served currently or who don't have that level of control over their supply, over their consumption, then if governments and others can have a particular focus on those communities, it will bring everybody along into this world of potential future benefits. And we're less likely to see an opening in what is sometimes called the energy divide. Because you really don't want different populations looking at energy as something that they're either entitled to or have to ration. 

[Sarah] (38:04 - 38:07) 

100%. 

What about you, Marc? What's the most important action we can take right now? 

[Marc] (38:08 - 39:00) 

I think the one thing for me is to ban new gas connections, because it's a no-brainer. I went through a thought process on this in my last role in New Zealand, and it's a nudge that consumers need to start thinking differently. But I would wrap that up with a constructive dialogue around the gas networks and what the transition looks like for them, because none of us really want the kind of disruption that could occur when there's no one there to pay for the gas network if everyone gets off it quickly. 

We've got to manage that carefully. And once you've got a more, a lower carbon, cheaper source of energy for the home, why wouldn't we build new homes 100% electric now from the beginning? And then the next step after that would be to ban any replacement equipment in the home and make sure that it was electricity only. 

And I think that requires policy shifts and brave politics, but it can be done. Victoria have done it. 

[Sarah] (39:00 - 39:01) 

Well, they've shown in Victoria. 

[Marc] (39:02 - 39:10) 

Victoria have done it, and other countries are doing it too. But we've got to do it in a constructive way that we all work together on how we avoid the disruption that could come to. 

[Sarah] (39:11 - 39:21) 

That's great. Well, thank you both so much. That was fascinating. 

Once again, I learnt lots. So, thank you to our listeners for tuning in to Wired for Good. 

[Marc] (39:22 - 39:23) 

Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. 

[Sarah Aubrey] (39:25 - 40:00) 

Join us next time as we uncover a game-changing opportunity in Australia’s energy transition—unlocking the power of the distribution network. Can NSW move faster, minimise costs, and make clean energy more accessible by rethinking the grid? We’re breaking it all down with industry leaders, tackling big questions, and exploring bold solutions. 

Don't miss it. For more info on today's episode, visit www.wiredforgood.com.au. Don't forget to follow us on YouTube, Spotify or Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode.